50 special with 90ss dummy tank/ repro 90ss's

[#25]

Right guys.. I have a mate coming racing this year. He is on a Vespa 50 Special in group 5/6. According to the comments on another thread it looks like he can fit a 90SS dummy tank to this bike. He will have to extend the brackets to make it fit but thats easy. He can gain chassis stiffness, stop the flex and gain nice cornering agilty too into the bargain. He will also raise the c of g which is great.

What I want to know is what do you all feel about this. Now in the rules as they stand , written ..I cannot bridge the gap. And as I was aware only 90 super sprints are allowed to do this either in standards or specials.

The 90ss chassis differs from a standard smallframe in many ways.. the ones that matter to us at this point are overall length, width, center of gravity and most importantly wheelbase.

So taking this into account if this fella turns up with a Vespa 50 with a 90ss dummy tank then is it going to be frowned on?
What do you all think?

As has been said a replica chassis prepped out of a 50 Special is not correct as per the rule book from what I know it, but is an option as original SS chassis fetch silly money!

For Group 5 or 6 if the 50 special chassis is prepped as per a 50SS or 90SS in respect of horncasing or legshield width? The 2 x M7 front tank mounts could be drilled for M7 rivit nuts to get the o/e fitting for the tank then trim the legshield to shape & dimensions of the SS legshield re-swage the outer beading edge but weld in 8mm wire rod as we did to our race prepped SS chassis units to improve the rigidity also do around the side panel areas so as to stop splitting due to vibration or coming off!
Then I for one would not have a problem.

However if just fitting a dummy tank into the 50 Special without the other frame mods then I would say no!

What do the commitee & scrutineers think?

Ian Frankland
Past Group 1 & 2 90SS rider

[tony]

Thanks Ian.. pretty much how I feel about it... vespa 50n uses same wheelbase.. so turn in will be similar and dummy tank will fit. If this proposed rule change will get more bums on seats then I am for it.

[vince]

Just a thought but many moons ago when someone I dont know who wanted to race a 90SS first, I wonder if their influence on the committee or the members of the committee decision has got us to where we are today.We all know the basic rules of the what is a scooter is and the trapezium shape and step through quality are the main quantifing characteristics, so all those years ago when the comittee decided to accept the 90SS, I wonder where we would be if they had come back and said yes you can race it but without the dummy tank fitted so it still conforms to scooter rules. I am not suggesting this is what we should do but its just a thought.
The very first records meeting I attended was also world attempt if I had the money for the massive entry fee I would of had to modify the flyer because at that stage I was informed by the FIM bods that it did not conform to the scooter requirements for world records ( it was fitted with a full fairing),so therefore it did not have the step through capability , and for that same reason a 90SS with dummy tank could not set world speed records.
Back in the good old days the agm attendees would discuss the proposals, vote accordingly , but the committee would then go behind closed doors and make the final decission,I can see some of the reasoning behind this maybe the weight thing this year is a good example of something put forward with good intentions causing all sorts of shit for everyone.but on the other end of the scale I had a proposal voted through with a large majority only for it to be turned over behind closed doors , but im not bitter or twisted about it
I would like to suggest that rule change proposals for each agm are put up in the members area at least three months prior to the agm, giving the members a good chance to listen to other views on the subject modifying wording if required to get the best from the proposal if it is still put forward, again the weight proposal was a very good example of this, with more time to dicuss this who knows what would have been put through.Doing this would also assist riders from other groups who do have the right to vote on all proposals the time to form a good balance view and vote in a way that moves scooter racing in the right direction forwards

[mr tumnus]

Right, so far so good.
Now I have verification what was said. The proposal was made by Mark Hanson some 5 years or so back. Along with some other ideas he mentioned the use of replica 90ss's. All his other proposals were thrown out and this replica proposal forgotten. So it was not voted and and so at present its Illegal. I've spoken to phil to check. However I'll propose this and get it in writing if its voted in for next year. With what has been mentioned to me today I realise that it is possible to get these replicas but we should aim to keep the dimensions as per original. That includes wheelbase. There was a company making these frames and so i'll look into that.

Steve, I dont know what your problem is but please call me to discuss..I'm trying to get some more lads out racing, in a legal way so there are no issues. Yesterday I was a prima donna if you recall.
Re your lambretta argument yes I see your point. But here we are talking about 'bridging the gap' with a frame that was never bridged or designed to be. So I have to get it voted on and done in the proper manner. Your argument re the lambrettas is flawed because you are only modifying to a standard dimension from another frame as they are all alike in terms of wheelbase and bodywork interchangeable. The gp is shorter on the headstock and thats it really. Smallframes are different. There are at least 3 different wheelbases and 3 different frame dimensions. And going back, I am talking about 'bridging the gap' on a frame it was never designed for when only a genuine 90SS is allowed to do according to the current rules.

Of course I'll give you a call to talk about it we're mates. But this is a public forum and if "this is illegal" gets banded about often enough without official endorsment most people will start to beleive it so I have to speak up on here too
Mark Hanson's proposal 5 years ago wasn't what got Eddie Goode riding one in the late '80s was it?
Riding a homogenous small frame vespa with the best handling characteristics of all models is no different to all the group 4s on the grid now and no more illegal.
A simple reversible alteration which costs around a hundred quid and apparently improves the handling imeasurably should be a no brainer
a lot cheaper and simpler than shortening the headstock and replacing the forks on a lambretta, who wouldn't want that for new riders
is anyone actually riding a 90ss anyway?,
surely PK forks & primmy casings make these hybrids, a bike isn't defined purely by it's chassis number

the trapezium and gap helped define what a scooter is from the days of reliability trials when hundreds of manufacturers built machines which may or may not have been eligible
we know what one is now, it's a vespa or lambretta with gears or a modern automatic direct drive,
we don't need the trapezium any more except as a poor last defence for personal ideology

[vince]

the trapezium and gap helped define what a scooter is from the days of reliability trials when hundreds of manufacturers built machines which may or may not have been eligible
we know what one is now, it's a vespa or lambretta with gears or a modern automatic direct drive,
we don't need the trapezium any more except as a poor last defence for personal ideology

I sorry but I disagree with you . The trapezium and all that goes with it is by definition what keeps scooters and motorcycles apart.I know the goal posts have moved to incorperate odd models but the basis of all we race is based on the definition of a scooter.

[mr tumnus]

It cannot be the definition unless it's definitive.
If it is then simple, no more ss90s no more gilera runners.

else it was just a useful way of filtering out bizarre big wheeled bella zundapps and maicolettas in the olden days

[vince]

its definitive by interpretation, scrutineers and AGM.

[mr tumnus]

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I've never been to an AGM where this has been discussed,
these days it's a given that we all know what a scooter is

the question is whether two identical frames may or may not bridge a gap based on a frame number
if they can't (and it's been allowed before) then under the current rules neither can a standard servetta frame have it's profile reduced to match that of a GP

[vince]

the question is whether two identical frames may or may not bridge a gap based on a frame number
if they can't (and it's been allowed before) then under the current rules neither can a standard servetta frame have it's profile reduced to match that of a GP

the question was wether you could bridge a 50 special frame to fit a dummy tank from a 90SS . IMOP as the rules stand at the moment I would think that bridging the gap is illegal on any machine in any group unless it was fitted and accepted as a standard fit like the SS90.Do not take it that I would want to knock back a bike that turned up with such a mod. I agree with you about the modifications to frames both vespa and Lambretta are carrying out mods that go beyond the manufacturers original specification requirement, but where do you want to draw the line when all the scooter racers have given up because of petty rule infringments

[tony]

Steve...as you well know the frames are not identical. I wish they were as it would make matters easier. The primavera is longer between the loop. Longer in the wheel base and larger in overall dimensions. Now am I bothered really?.. well no.I dont care what frame it is. It doesnt really affect me. But others may.. the world of 90ss racing does not revolve around me. It affects others and I feel its only right we get some regs in writing once they have been voted on. So maybe we could propose any frame allowed to be converted or we propose on professionally converted frames that are available... this is the time for discussion.. this year... and just because lambretta people shorten li150 frames to Gp headstock dimensions and have done so for years doesnt mean you can turn up with a 90ss replica and off you go. It needs talking about and voted on at the AGM.